Hammering out self-doubt: How to overcome imposter syndrome in construction

Charley Burtwistle (00:05):

What is up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of “The Building Code.” I am Charley Burtwistle, and here today we have Estie Briggs, who is an emotional intelligence coach and consultant at Briggs Performance Consulting. We’re going to be talking about imposter syndrome. So, we’ve had Estie on before, last time was talking about regulating emotions, staying calm in the face of adversity, not getting too stressed out and yelling or punching someone, but better ways to deal with that. And during the interview, we talked about imposter syndrome, which got brought up a couple times, and we’re like, we just have to have her back on to talk more about this. So, that will be what we’re covering today, I’m personally very excited because imposter syndrome is something I face constantly, and I think a lot of people do, whether they realize it or not. So, we’re going to talk about what are some different strategies you can do to overcome that, and also how you can be a better ally in the workplace with other people that may be experiencing imposter syndrome to help them feel more empowered.

(01:02):

Estie is also going to bring a very insightful angle of talking about women in construction, and in a very male-dominated field, I think only 11% of the construction workforce is made up of women, that can just compound on the impact of imposter syndrome, when you’re looking around, you don’t see a ton of people that look like you and are potentially dealing with the same things that you’re dealing with. So, for the women listening, Estie will have some fantastic advice on how to overcome this, and the men listening will have some fantastic advice on how you can help create a better workplace for women in construction, and make sure that everyone on your team is happy, healthy and wise, and productive, and you can tackle the world together. That will be my goal to get out of this interview, but I am not going to be the one doing it, Estie will be. So, without further ado, let’s get her in here. Estie, welcome back to “The Building Code.” How’s it going?

Estie Briggs (01:55):

Good. Good to see you again, Charley.

Charley Burtwistle (01:57):

Fantastic to see you again, one of our rare and special recurring guests, so we’re excited to have you back on.

Estie Briggs (01:57):

Thank you.

Charley Burtwistle (02:03):

But for those people that did not catch your last episode, as always, we’d like to start with, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, where you came from, and how you got to where you’re at today.

Estie Briggs (02:11):

OK, sure. I think this shifts every time, but born and raised in the Bay Area, I now am doing a lot of work with, and especially with construction actually, of emotional intelligence workshops for a lot of project management leadership … I do part of the PMCA program for UConn, I don’t know if you guys are familiar with them, but they offer this 13-week program to construction project managers, and we always kick it off with emotional intelligence, and people love it. So, that’s what I’ve been working on as of lately, I just did the first one in Anaheim about a week ago. And other than that, I also do a lot of workshops around communication styles, I’m really passionate about helping people build the skills that we’d all rather be having, I think, and I’m always working on it myself.

Charley Burtwistle (03:13):

Awesome.

Estie Briggs (03:13):

It’s a constant journey.

Charley Burtwistle (03:14):

Yeah. The last episode I remember was about regulating emotions. Obviously, the job site could be super stressful, you’re dealing with a ton of different people, a lot of cooks in the kitchen, clients have very high expectations, and short timelines, and a lot of money, and you’re dealing with subcontractors, the rest of your employees, and architects, and blah, blah, blah … How do you regulate those emotions, remain calm under stress? And what I loved about the last episode that you’re on, while it was definitely geared towards our listeners, which are largely contractors, I myself was taking a ton of notes, because obviously I work in a workplace …

Estie Briggs (03:15):

Yay.

Charley Burtwistle (03:47):

… and I’m stressed, and I have to handle myself professionally in meetings and make sure that everyone gets along, and I just remember as we were talking, we hit on a ton of different subjects that were slightly outside of what we’re supposed to be talking about, which is regulating emotions.

Estie Briggs (04:03):

Emotional intelligence …

Charley Burtwistle (04:03):

And we were like, we have to have Estie back on …

Estie Briggs (04:03):

Yay.

Charley Burtwistle (04:06):

… to talk about all these other things that feed into emotional intelligence, and making yourself the most productive and happy person you can be and making sure the people around you are the most productive and happy they can be. And one that stood out, where I remember at the very end, we’re like, we have to have you back on to talk an entire episode about this, is imposter syndrome. And I am, once again, super excited to get the opportunity to be the one interviewing you because I’m going to take notes because this is something that I deal with constantly. But for those people that maybe don’t know what imposter syndrome is, let’s start at the very top. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is?

Estie Briggs (04:45):

Yeah, thank you for the super kind intro, and I’m super excited, I love talking about this stuff, too, because I am just wired to share information. So, every time I learn something, I’m like, how can we turn this into a class? So, imposter syndrome is … First of all, I’m just going to say it’s not a syndrome. After my research, I bristle at calling it syndrome because syndrome implies that it’s something that you need to go fix, or that you need to get diagnosed. But it’s basically a collection of feelings and experiences where you’re constantly either … And we all have an inner voice, right? Some of us have several, which is OK, it’s totally healthy and normal. Your inner voice is always saying things like: Why are you at this seat? Why did they leave you in charge of these people? You don’t deserve to be here. They’re going to find out you’re a fraud.

(05:50):

And so, what happens is it ends up keeping us from moving forward, and it keeps us from getting what we want, and it can manifest in a lot of different ways, which you’ve got some great questions lined up, and I appreciate that you prepared me, I’m excited to dive in. But that’s a high-level explanation of what it is. It’s basically collection of experience and thoughts and the belief that you’re not supposed to be doing what you’re doing, and you’re faking it. And when you do succeed, this is the other characteristic, you attribute it to luck or external factors. But then, when you fail, you internalize it. So, how many of us … I do that, too, if I screw something up, it’s always my fault. But I tend to collaborate on celebrating the wins, but it’s important to give yourself credit, too.

Charley Burtwistle (06:50):

Yeah. And I think I’m super excited to dive into this today because I think it’s something that, again, I’d be shocked if not everybody, 100% of people in the world experience it at least in some capacity, but especially in the construction industry, just because it’s such a right in the middle of the Venn diagram, of you need to have a very, very solid business background, and understand how to make money, and you also have to have a very, very solid construction background, and understand how to build houses. And a lot of times people will come from one background or the other and feel like they’re potentially ill-equipped to handle it holistically, or it will be a family business that’s been passed down, that now you’re running out of nowhere. I just feel like it’s a lot more common in construction because of just how complicated and how many different aspects you have to be an “expert” in.

Estie Briggs (07:41):

Expert at, yeah.

Charley Burtwistle (07:42):

And then, specifically, another area where we wanted to bring you on today is for women in construction. We have a stat in here, only about 11% of the construction workforce is made up from women, most people in the construction workforce look exactly like me, and that can add on top of it where you don’t have these one-to-one peers or people that you can look at, of why am I the only one doing this thing? So, I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about that specifically, why is imposter syndrome so prevalent or common in women in construction, and what do you think that is about?

Estie Briggs (08:15):

Ooh. Let’s just jump right in.

Charley Burtwistle (08:18):

Let’s jump straight in.

Estie Briggs (08:19):

Yeah, let’s just go for it. So, first of all, I just want to say that none of this is with any judgment to the men because I think men get a bad rep a lot of times when their behaviors are perceived as malicious or mansplaining or all these things that you guys get held responsible for are not always intentional. So, I just want to start with that because I think that there are behaviors that contribute to women feeling imposter syndrome that men might not be aware of and so, I always say just start with curiosity and not judgment. Right?

Charley Burtwistle (09:05):

Love that phrase. Yeah.

Estie Briggs (09:06):

So, I’ll give you an example. A woman that was in my project management masterclass with Yukon two years ago was also in it with her cousin, it was a family business. I think she was a project manager, I can’t remember what her exact title was. But she described, and he confirmed, multiple times where a male contractor would come in and ask her a question, and she would answer it, and the guy would go to the man and confirm that she gave him the right information. So, that’s a perfect example of, I’m sure that contractor didn’t come in there thinking that she didn’t belong there, or anything malicious, he probably just, whatever, he’s got his belief system, and whatever he learned from his dad, or … I’m thinking of my husband and how he used to behave, and he was in construction, and he had a lot of these traits that I didn’t like, but that I think he wasn’t aware of the impact of them, if that makes sense.

(10:06):

So, back to your question of how women experience it, that’s a micro, it’s what you could call a microaggression, where … Because if that guy asked you that question, and you answered it, he’d probably be like, OK, bro. And so, the fact that he’s second guessed her and went to a male coworker was kind of an insult, even though he didn’t know that was an insult. So, for her, her experience in that moment was probably like, I’m sure her inner voice was like … I don’t know. I don’t know if she reacted with anger or if she was used to it, she said that it happens multiple times. So, that’s just a small sort of illustration of it, if that makes sense.

Charley Burtwistle (10:50):

Yeah.

Estie Briggs (10:50):

And then I think … Yeah, go ahead. I’ll let you …

Charley Burtwistle (10:53):

I was just going to say, absolutely, I think that anytime, again, I’m of the belief that everyone experiences imposter syndrome in some fashion, but anytime you’re not only second guessing yourself, but you’re now having external people second guess you is just going to compound that belief internally, and think, OK, maybe I didn’t know the answer, and that’s, well, potentially completely unintentional, but there are actions and reactions that a lot of people are unaware of, which is why I think that talking about these sorts of things more and more, why we’re so excited to have you on today, I know you’re doing webinars about this, and classes about this as well, too. Again, make the people around you happier and more productive.

Estie Briggs (11:34):

Right. And I think women contribute a lot to the … I think they bring a unique energy. I can see the difference in workshops where I’ve got a cohort and it’s all men. They’re fine, we just did one last week, there were no women in the cohort that we just kicked off. But there’s a difference in the energy that you get, I think, when you have a woman at the table, and then when you have two or three, I think it helps shift the culture, potentially, if they’re given a voice, if they get talked over at the table, whether that’s intentional or unintentional, then everybody’s missing out because then they feel shut down and then they’re not going to contribute, and that’s where imposter syndrome kicks in. Which brings us to the causes, so I don’t know if you want to hop to that.

Charley Burtwistle (12:28):

Yeah, that was a fantastic segue, I can tell you’ve been on a podcast before.

Estie Briggs (12:31):

Yeah. So, what was super interesting to me also was that it’s not just internal. I thought that it was just our inner shit, for lack of a better term, of whatever, we’ve all got our voices, and our baggage, and our beliefs, but there are … And those are all true, those are all the internal causes are very real, but there are also external factors. For example, the one I just explained, the one I just described. So, little microaggressions, where women get, or anybody for that matter, gets talked over, or interrupted, or is in a culture where it’s not rewarded to speak up. So, you and I talked about this last time actually, we got on this topic of psychological safety, and how some workplaces can have a culture where you’re encouraged to put your hand up and say, there’s a better way to do this, and then there’s workplaces that don’t want to hear it. And depending on that culture and how the leadership sets those norms, that can contribute to imposter syndrome.

Charley Burtwistle (13:44):

Absolutely. And I think where I’d like to go with this interview is dive into both sides of that, it’s like, what can an individual do internally if they’re experiencing imposter syndrome, to push past that and set themselves up for better mental sanity and understanding why I am entitled to do this, and why I should do this, and I do rock, and I am awesome, and everything’s going to be OK, but then the other side of that as well too is what can other people do to promote that kind of emotional safety in their work environment to ensure that people are struggling with imposter syndrome can, not be productive, but are able to get out of it. So, let’s start on the individual basis. What are some common signs?

Estie Briggs (14:33):

What can you do?

Charley Burtwistle (14:33):

Well, yeah, let’s start even further out, how do you understand, is this something I’m experiencing?

Estie Briggs (14:39):

Oh my gosh. Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, the self-awareness piece is really key, and we do… So, there’s this exercise, we’ll talk about PIER, because that’s a really good one. So, PIER is just this four-step acronym that is a reminder, when you’re feeling something, you’re feeling triggered, something’s got you, OK, that interaction, when that contractor second-guessed the woman and asked the male colleague the same question, in front of her, if she was like me, if I were to put myself in her shoes, I would feel an immediate strong reaction, and the first and most important thing to do is to just pause and say, OK, I’m feeling something. And that’s to just recognize that you’re triggered and ask yourself why. And then, I stands for investigate, which is to figure out what the cause is, what’s happening.

(15:42):

And then the E is for evaluate. OK, what can I do about it? What tools do I have? What strategies do I have? And then the R stands for respond. And so, it’s this four-step process, and I might’ve showed it in the emotion regulation podcast too, that you can just use to give yourself that space to come up with a better response to a situation when you’re emotionally hijacked in that state of mind. So, that’s one strategy, but that doesn’t really overcome the imposter syndrome, that just stopped you from punching somebody in the throat.

Charley Burtwistle (16:17):

Yeah, a good step one, for sure.

Estie Briggs (16:21):

There’s another strategy called flip the script that I like, and we do this in the masterclass. And so, what you do, it takes a little reflection, you can’t just do this on the fly, but you write down whatever the negative messages that you’re getting from your inner voice, whether it’s saying, you should have done this better, you should have done it faster, somebody else could have done it better … And then, you ask yourself if it’s true, and usually it’s not because our inner voices tend to not be truthful, they’re just, it’s a whole collection of baggage from childhood and other experiences. And so, you write down that negative message, and then you ask yourself, well, what would the opposite be? And the opposite, just the act of rethinking it and flipping it to the opposite can help you reframe and override that negative script.

Charley Burtwistle (17:22):

Interesting. OK, I think I do that, unintentionally sometimes.

Estie Briggs (17:28):

OK.

Charley Burtwistle (17:29):

I’m a big fan of journaling, but I don’t do it on a consistent basis, I do it when something’s bothering me, and I write that out. Because just the process of writing something down, one, makes you pause, if you go back to your PIER thing. Your brain goes a million miles a minute, and you’re jumping around to all sorts of different things that could have happened, like the classic shower thoughts, the things that I should have said and could have done here. I find myself spiraling very quickly if I just lay and think about things, but when I write stuff, it forces me to be very intentional about, OK, what is actually bothering me here and why is it bothering me?

(18:07):

I don’t think I take the next step and flip the script of what would the opposite outcome have been, but even just writing something down for me, by the time it’s on the page, I read it, I’m like, OK, that is really silly, I can’t believe I just wasted five minutes writing that down, what was I worried about? As opposed to if I would be laying in bed, I’d be up until 2 a.m. thinking about it.

Estie Briggs (18:25):

Yeah. Sometimes we just need to process it, and writing is a really powerful tool. So, I’m glad to hear you’re journaling. There’s some great … So, in the show notes, you can share a link.

Charley Burtwistle (18:36):

For sure.

Estie Briggs (18:37):

I’ll send you a little job aid of some reflection questions that I include in the masterclass that are, I think, really helpful, and you can include those in your Journaling, or if any of your listeners want to try that, I highly recommend it.

Charley Burtwistle (18:50):

Yeah. It’s one of those things that it’s kind of similar to tracking your calories, is even just doing it once or twice puts you in a better frame of reference, where you don’t need to do it every day, but you can at least understand the right steps, you understand exactly, OK, hamburger is about this many calories, or this type of problem is about this level of thinking. So, even just doing it a couple times has helped me when I don’t do it, be able to at least think through the process in a more intentional way as opposed to spiraling.

Estie Briggs (19:24):

Good job, Charley! You’re doing the work.

Charley Burtwistle (19:27):

I try. I needed to.

Estie Briggs (19:29):

It’s good.

Charley Burtwistle (19:30):

I think …

Estie Briggs (19:30):

Yeah, we have to process these things.

Charley Burtwistle (19:34):

I think that’s a great strategy. Are there anything else that can really help anybody experiencing imposter syndrome, but specifically women in construction, push back self-doubt and own their expertise and their experience?

Estie Briggs (19:49):

Yeah, two quick things come to mind. One is to track your wins, and then try something scary, which is like if you’re experiencing that you’re feeling stuck, or that you’re feeling like you’re, I don’t like the word afraid, but you’re hesitant to move forward or try something, give yourself a challenge, like I’m going to speak up in the meeting next week, or I’m going to coach somebody else on how to do something, if I see somebody doing something wrong, or that could be doing something better, and just give yourself little challenges to show your … Because what you’re doing, it’s not just the fact that you’re going to go do the thing and then feel good about it, but you’re also training your brain that you’re capable of doing these things, and then it helps break down those imposter messages, basically.

(20:43):

Because it does get better over time, and it’s like with intention, you’re building a muscle and eventually you can learn to override all that. And this isn’t to say that you can go do heart surgery just because you watched Grey’s Anatomy, and you’ve decided that you’re not an imposter, you have to own your successes. But a lot of us tend to, even though we’ve got the track record and the proven certifications and everything, we tend to not give ourselves credit for really bringing value to the table often. And that’s the sad thing because everybody loses out. And then the other thing I was going to say is women can form alliances. So, get to know other people in the workplace, and it helps sometimes. And men, too, try to hold space and see if you see somebody acting in a way that is probably insulting, and maybe they’re not aware of it, approach them about it. You don’t have to call them out and make them feel bad, but just help be the change.

Charley Burtwistle (21:52):

Yeah, I love both those things. The challenge one, specifically, I’m a big fan of, I did that early in my career. This is my first job out of college, I’m like, I don’t deserve to be sitting in this room, and I’d sit there and take notes, and that was something I had to do. It was like, OK, tomorrow I’m going to say one thing.

Estie Briggs (22:09):

Awesome.

Charley Burtwistle (22:09):

And your whole time you’re just like, as long as I can speak up in this meeting, it doesn’t matter if I’m disagreeing with someone, just push past that because then the challenges become confidences. You’re like, OK, I can do this, and then, yeah, to your point, remember those things, right? Those things down, that’s a win that you can always go and fall back on then when you’re experiencing the other side of things. It’s like, OK, I’ve done hard things before, and I was scared before …

Estie Briggs (22:33):

Yeah. But we tend to forget it. We remember the bad stuff, we remember the unpleasantness more easily.

Charley Burtwistle (22:40):

Right. Yeah, I can think of countless times where I’m like, OK, this is going to be really, really hard.

Estie Briggs (22:43):

Is it?

Charley Burtwistle (22:43):

I’m like, wait, I’ve done really, really hard things before and everything turned out fine.

Estie Briggs (22:47):

It’s all it is, you’re just questioning those beliefs that are so automatic that we’d never think to override them.

Charley Burtwistle (22:54):

Yeah.

Estie Briggs (22:54):

But once we do …

Charley Burtwistle (22:57):

And then the peer-to-peer group or the networking is another fantastic one, that I actually think the construction industry as a whole is getting a lot better at over the past …

Estie Briggs (23:06):

Better about.

Charley Burtwistle (23:06):

… four to five years.

Estie Briggs (23:07):

I see that, too.

Charley Burtwistle (23:08):

… where it used to be hide my trade secrets, and I don’t want to share my financials, and I don’t want to share my subcontractors, and all the problems I’m experiencing, I’m the only person experiencing them. That’s why I love doing this podcast is I get to talk to people and I’m like, wait, I’m not the only person that has this problem, a lot of other people do, too. So, something that, in this specific example of being a woman in the construction workplace, I’m sure it can feel incredibly lonely, and that you are the only one experiencing the things that you’re experiencing, and that just continues to compound, but finding a group of people and understanding, OK, other people have dealt with these same sort of things before, and this is what they do to manage it, and I’m not the only one, can get you out of that rut, for sure.

Estie Briggs (23:49):

And also, I think assume the best, unless people are acting purposely awful. I always say assume the best intent in people and just speak up and hold your space. And there’s some assertiveness techniques, too, that we probably … I know we’re getting over time. But one thought or question or prompt, if you’re journaling, is what prevents you from being assertive? If that’s something that you’re not comfortable with because a lot of people aren’t. Think about what the barriers are. Is it because I don’t want to hurt people’s feelings, is it I assume somebody’s going to not like me? Once you say it out loud and think about it’s not always … It’s often our own messages, again, that keep us from doing what it is we want to do.

Charley Burtwistle (24:49):

Yeah. Is there … Now, I’m just using this as a therapy session, I’m going to tell you stuff I struggle with and hope that it’s applicable to everyone else. Is this something that you work with people on, is you want them to be confident and assertive and humble, but you don’t want to feel like you’re constantly having to prove yourself? What’s the balance there that you typically recommend, of …

Estie Briggs (25:14):

Yeah, that’s a good question.

Charley Burtwistle (25:15):

It’s not like I’ve made it now, but it’s like you’re always trying to prove yourself …

Estie Briggs (25:15):

Humility and confidence.

Charley Burtwistle (25:15):

Yeah.

Estie Briggs (25:21):

Well, confidence comes from the achievements that you know you’ve done. So, if your confidence is not, if it doesn’t have a solid foundation, if it’s just based on external factors, that’s where you get into shaky ground. If your confidence is based on other people’s praise and external things, then it’s much less effective. So, your confidence has to come from your own belief and your worth.

Charley Burtwistle (25:49):

Love that.

Estie Briggs (25:50):

It’s definitely something I learned from building this class, too, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah. Because it’s so easy to get wrapped up in the likes, or the subscribers, or the kudos, or whatever, and that’s all just external things that we don’t really have any control over, so you don’t want to give that power up, basically.

Charley Burtwistle (26:12):

Yeah, control what you can control. Like you said, we are getting close to time here, but I think a good question to end on here would be, kind of twofold, is one, how can women in leadership positions help support and mentor and help coach and experience people experiencing imposter syndrome? Maybe things that they’ve already gone through. And then two, what role do male allies play in fostering a more inclusive and supportive industry, in construction in this case?

Estie Briggs (26:45):

Yeah, those are great questions. Well, I think in both cases, whether you’re male or female, if you’re a leader, just checking in and seeing how people are doing, and also sharing your experiences and sharing some vulnerability is always a good step for building trust, which builds confidence in others. If a leader sees that somebody’s struggling to speak up at meetings, or … I was coaching this one woman and she really had trouble speaking up in meetings where this one other person was present and so, it was like, OK, well what’s that about? So, dig in and ask those questions, and do it without judgment, do it with curiosity.

(27:36):

And I think for the second question, for how male coworkers can be allies, just ask yourself if you’re behaving in a way that you want people to … I had this great client who really broke down one time with me and shared that he had a close friend that passed away, and at this guy’s funeral, people were talking about what a great guy he was. And my client was in tears, basically, saying, I don’t want people to remember the things about me that I’m doing right now, basically. Because he did have a way of making people cry on his team, and not … It wasn’t in construction, it was in mortgage. But still, the way that you give feedback to people, and the way that you show up in meetings, and the way that you correct people on their behavior, it has this ripple effect. And so, keeping that in mind, I don’t care what gender you are or what gender you’re dealing with, I think that that’s just part of being a good human.

Charley Burtwistle (28:46):

Yeah, that’s a really interesting and really introspective way of thinking about things, is you’re building your legacy every single day and every action that you do, so what’s the legacy you want to leave behind?

Estie Briggs (28:46):

Yeah, how do you want to be remembered?

Charley Burtwistle (28:46):

Love that.

Estie Briggs (28:59):

Do you want to be remembered is the guy that made everybody cry?

Charley Burtwistle (29:00):

Yeah.

Estie Briggs (29:00):

Probably not.

Charley Burtwistle (29:01):

Probably not. That’s a fantastic point to end on, Estie.

Estie Briggs (29:05):

Yay.

Charley Burtwistle (29:05):

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Estie Briggs (29:05):

Yeah.

Charley Burtwistle (29:08):

I always find this incredibly beneficial, and I know our listeners do, too, so really appreciate you making the time.

Estie Briggs (29:12):

Thanks, Charley. Thanks for having me, thanks for asking good questions and holding space.

Charley Burtwistle (29:17):

Absolutely. We’ll see you soon.

Estie Briggs (29:19):

OK.

Charley Burtwistle (29:20):

All right. We just heard from Estie Briggs, emotional intelligence coach and consultant at Briggs Performance Consulting, and she did not disappoint. I know the angle specifically of this interview was really geared towards women in construction, but I personally found it very, very, very informative for myself as well, too. I think a lot of the strategies that she outlined around writing stuff down, pausing and reflecting, the PIER acronym that she gave was very beneficial and something that I’m definitely going to start taking advantage of in the workplace, and I also think just being really intentional and insightful around who you want to be, and the legacy you want to leave, the note that she ended on, I thought was very powerful because we’re making our legacies every single day with every action that you do. So, just be a good human, treat other people how you want to be treated. Reach out.

(30:15):

I think that’s something I personally can do a lot better job of, is most people are pretty good at understanding and recognizing when someone’s struggling, so go to them and ask them what they need help with, or what you can do to better help them. Be a mentor. Be a leader, and just trust yourself. I think that if you’re running a construction business, that you are a very, very, very successful person already, so feel that confidence and pour from that bucket to those people around you as well. So, I have a page full of notes. I’m going to get a lot better at this, I learned a lot, and hopefully you as a listener did as well, too. And we will be back again next week at “The Building Code,” as always, I’m Charley Burtwistle. Peace.