IBS 2024 preview: How to retain top talent with Nick Schiffer

Zach Wojtowicz:

What’s up everybody? Welcome to “The Building Code.” I’m Zach Wojtowicz.

Charley Burtwistle:

And I’m Charley Burtwistle.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Charley, it’s so good to see you.

Charley Burtwistle:

It is fantastic to be back. I know we have been releasing episodes. But a little insider baseball, we actually record quite a few of these at once and then release them out for the next couple of weeks or month. So, the last time I was in the studio was actually back in November, man, and I believe this episode is getting released in February. So, a few months time off. So, it feels great to be back. I’m very excited to be in the studio with my BT best bud, Zach Wojtowicz.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That’s right. It’s good to see you back. Courtney filled in, and she will continue to probably jump on and make us look bad in front of all of our customers and listeners out there. But we’re going to do our best to hold it down today. Okay? And to bring you back, we’ve got quite the guest.

Charley Burtwistle:

Oh, Zach, who do we have?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Nick Schiffer.

Charley Burtwistle:

You’re kidding.

Zach Wojtowicz:

You’re kidding.

Nick Schiffer, he’s literally a construction legend.

Charley Burtwistle:

He is. I’m a little nervous.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, I get a little starstruck.

Charley Burtwistle:

I saw his name on the, I don’t know what we call them, call sheet or schedule or whatever, and I was like, “okay, I better put on the quarter zip today.”

Zach Wojtowicz:

Get the Patagonia going. You got to look nice.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. I got a collared shirt on. Yeah, this is a big time interview, big time episode and for a big time reason. You want to preview just a little bit, Zach?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, of course. Yeah. We’re here to talk a little bit about IBS, the big event in construction. We’re really excited about it. Nick is going to be down there on a panel talking with our CEO Dan Houghton, discussing things like the labor shortage in the construction industry. Nick is one of the most impressive individuals that I’ve had the pleasure of meeting. He’s just so naturally curious, and he’s always learning, and every time I run into him, I learn so much because of his worldview, and he’s just a visionary. Let’s have us stop talking and let’s get him in here.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. Don’t want to steal his thunder. Here we go.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Nick Schiffer, the man, the myth, the legend on the Mount Rushmore of “The Building Code,” five timer. Welcome back. How are you?

Nick Schiffer:

I’m good man. 10 out of 10. How are you?

Zach Wojtowicz:

10 out of 10.

Charley Burtwistle:

10 out of 10.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Love the energy. That was what you touched us earlier and you are consistent on the 10 out of a 10.

Nick Schiffer:

You’ve got to be.

Zach Wojtowicz:

That’s right. And for those that don’t know, you also are a podcast veteran. You’ve got your own podcast, “The Modern Craftsman.”

Nick Schiffer:

I do.

Zach Wojtowicz:

And so, I’m really excited because you’re going to teach us a thing or two.

Charley Burtwistle:

Absolutely. I’m taking notes this whole episode.

Nick, for those that have not been fortunate enough to hear your first four on “The Building Code,” would love if you just do a real quick intro, who you are, where you come from, and how you got to where you’re at right now.

Nick Schiffer:

Yeah. My name is Nick Schiffer, owner of NS Builders, Materia Millwork, also Motif Media. Custom home builder here in Boston, Massachusetts. We are a team of craftsmen and craftswomen, supers, project managers, carpenters, cabinet makers and creatives in the media side of what we do. Been in business for 10 plus years and have used the last decade to not only hone our skills in home building, but also promote and share it through things like the podcast and as well as our YouTube channel and other social media channels.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Amazing, amazing. All your content is so incredible, thoughtful. I learn a lot when I watch it. You’re an inspiration …

Nick Schiffer:

Appreciate that.

Zach Wojtowicz:

… to media moguls out there as well as builders. And we wanted to bring you on today to talk about a few different things. I feel like we’re probably going to get … Warning to the listeners, we’re going to get to a lot of different topics.

Charley Burtwistle:

This is going to be a long one, strap in.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Just buckle up.

Nick Schiffer:

I can talk, so I can take a hard left real quick. So, buckle in.

Zach Wojtowicz:

But we always like to talk a little bit about your business, and you mentioned that you’ve got Materia Millwork and all the things that go with it. As an entrepreneur, is this kind of what you expected? Did you expect to have two, three businesses or is this something that just kind of happened as you grew in the construction industry?

Nick Schiffer:

I mean, I know it happened when I left my, “Corporate job” when I was working for a commercial contractor doing high rise, I started my company with the intent to be a carpenter and be a carpenter for a really long time and maybe have a handful of guys. It wasn’t until year two or three that I really started thinking about it as a business and really started building it as a business.

So, I think what happened was that over time I started hiring people and bringing team members on and realizing that they had a lot of value. And Ken, for example, with Materia Millwork, he came on as a cabinet maker and now fast-forward, he’s a partner in that company. And a lot of that has to do with the value that he brought and what he wanted in his life, and I wanted to be a part of that and help support it and give him ownership of the mill workshop. And he’s doing a great job.

And same thing with Doug. Doug came in as a videographer. We went to college together. I started hiring him like C&M to film my stuff because I wanted content. And fast-forward, I wanted him to have the autonomy to work with other great clients, and we founded Motif Media. The podcast kind of just evolved out of thin air almost quite literally, and that has just grown into a center hub of information with Tyler and myself as equal partners.

So, no, I didn’t go into this thinking that I would have a number of different businesses. I think a lot of people that are listening to this and a lot of people nowadays, I’ve been heavily influenced by everything that’s around me. Social media has been a great tool for that and I would attribute a lot of that influence to where I am today.

Charley Burtwistle:

I love that. And what I love about how you phrase that is just giving the nod and credit to a lot of the people that have came along with you on this journey. That’s one of the things that we’re going to get to later in this episode is not just retaining top talent, but being able to find those special people and hiring top talent, growing them, and in your case, growing them into major parts, if not leads, of your different companies that you have. So, that’s a really cool way of looking at things and something I’m excited to hear more about your process throughout kind of that journey.

But the reason that we wanted to have you on today is this is kind of our IBS preview show, so we try to do one of these every year as we’re gearing up for the International Builder Show, which is always a good time. Are you fired up? I mean, if you’re a 10 out of 10 today, what are you on IBS day?

Nick Schiffer:

Man, I probably start a 10 and then I probably end at nine and a half because my feet hurt. I mean, I’ve actually recommended this every podcast pre IBS is that you got to wear comfortable shoes.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Get the dad shoes out, New Balance, ASICS.

Nick Schiffer:

It’s legit, you do a lot of walking. But no, I’m pumped up. I actually didn’t get to go last year for a very good reason. We had a baby at that time. And I’m excited to go back this year. Truthfully, I go there for the face time with people like you guys. Being able to sit in the same room and chat live, that’s what I find most valuable. And anyone that reaches out and asks if they should go, I’m like, “yeah, this is the opportunity to connect with all of these people that you’re probably chatting with online and through social media or through vendors or other contractors.” This is an opportunity to be in one place and have kind of a, we’ll call it, more intimate opportunity to network.

Zach Wojtowicz:

We had Brad Leavitt on the podcast as well talking about IBS, he said the exact same thing and we had a really great conversation about the builder community and how there aren’t as many opportunities to have that in construction, and this is kind of the mecca of getting a bunch of contractors in one city. And I’ve seen it on the floor. So, if you’ve never been, it is kind of magical. It’s a lot of shock and awe, but it’s also a lot of great conversations and smiling and laughing, having a drink and a lot of great learning.

We’re also having you on a panel with our CEO Dan Houghton to talk a little bit about some things in the construction space. Want to give our listeners a little sneak peek about maybe what the topics you’ll be addressing with Dan?

Nick Schiffer:

Yeah. I mean, number one, it’s going to be about hiring and retaining top talent. And I think that, speaking of Brad Leavitt, that’s something him and I chat a lot about not only our event but offline. I was chatting with him earlier today, and we’re always talking about people. And I think over the decade of doing this I’ve thought a lot about the people that I’ve had on my team, people that I’ve lost, people that I’ve let go, and people that I’ve hired and retained and thought a lot about what worked and what didn’t. Naturally I think I probably spend more time thinking about things that don’t work because I want to improve those systems.

And really what it came down to is exactly what I just said, systems. Like understanding, setting expectations, and being really upfront about what the expectations are with someone’s role specifically. As simple as having a formalized job description. I spent years not having that or having a half-assed one. And finally, just last year, I took the time and wrote out every single job description and even linked them as a career path for someone that came in as an apprentice and wanted to work their way up to a director. And when I did that and we were going through the hiring process, we realized how valuable it was because people were responding like, “Wow, this is amazing to see the opportunity of growth within the business.”

I’m going to stop there because I don’t want to give away the entire panel. But that’s really what it comes down to is being really upfront with your expectations.

Zach Wojtowicz:

I love that.

Nick Schiffer:

Let me add to this, and this might be corny, but I’m just going to share it anyway.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Let her rip.

Nick Schiffer:

I’m going to do a bad job in paraphrasing here. But I heard a quote yesterday, and it was talking about not clearly setting expectations is essentially predetermined resentment. And I heard that and I’m like, “Wow.” I’m like, “That’s super.” Someone’s going to correct me, that’s not the quote, but that was the premise of the quote. Basically, when you don’t communicate your expectations, it’s, I’m sorry, premeditated resentment. Meaning you tell someone to do something and you don’t give them all the information, you watch them do it, and you know, they’re going to fail and then they fail then you go into resentment. And I reflected on that quite a bit and I realized this is what I’m talking about when it comes to hiring and building a good business is, you really need to be upfront with those expectations

Zach Wojtowicz:

And to your point, defining those expectations and writing them down, even, take time, effort, energy, and it feels like a lot of work to kind of … But what do you get on the other side, which is the right fit, all the things that come with that.

Nick Schiffer:

I think, generally speaking, that is the most difficult part of business is that there are these things that you know are valuable and you can say that, “Hey, if I do this now in a year, two years, three years, whatever, it will be much bigger and even better.” But it’s that first step of doing. It’s like going to the gym. You go to the gym once you feel great, but you don’t see any results. You’re not going to see results for a year or six months or something like that. But going and just being super disciplined and going every single day with the understanding that you’re not seeing any results for a very long time, and frankly in six months, it’s going to be such a slow progression that you won’t even notice unless you have a before photo. And that’s what it comes down to.

It’s very similar to business, and right now we’re going through this process of documenting every one of our processes, taking the time to really be thorough about what we do. Because we realize that we’re spending so much time when we hire someone new, it’s like, “Hey, how do I request time off?” It’s like, sure, let me show you. And then 20 minutes later they understand it and then I hire someone else. It’s like, “Hey, how do I request time off?” 20 minutes later. It’s like, why wouldn’t I just record a video and add it to an internal document so when someone asks me that, I can just refer them to that document. And then they’re like, “Oh, everything’s here, I’m just going to look in here when I have a question.” Saves me 20 minutes per hire, it compounds.

And again, it doesn’t feel like you’re saving a lot of time in that very moment, but over time you document this stuff, you share this stuff, you’re setting these expectations, you’re building, essentially, the code of like, hey, this is how we operate the business. It adds a lot of value to not only just the bottom line, but my time and my team’s time.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Well, and even just for them, they’re going to be a lot more confident going into their situations about what to do. You’ve talked about that a lot in my time with you about SOPs and the value. It’s not even just … Of course, having it on paper is beneficial, but it’s also the guys come to work more productive because they know exactly what to do in every situation.

Nick Schiffer:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s so many things that we’ve implemented in the last few years and the most talked about one is our handbook. And, finally, I just sat down and worked with a lawyer and put together a handbook with all this information in it. And it’s funny because now … We had a holiday recently where my team informed me that we had the day off, and I was like, “What?”

Zach Wojtowicz:

Uh-oh.

Nick Schiffer:

They were like, “Yeah, it’s in the handbook.” And I’m like, “Yeah, you’re right it is.” I would’ve just worked. But they didn’t ask me. They didn’t like, “Hey, do we have this day off?” They referred to the handbook because they knew that that document was there, and it was available to them, and they had the information they needed. And truthfully, that is valuable to me. I realized that we’ve done a good job where we’ve put this information into a place that it’s not just this floating word document in space. It’s a document that they reference often.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. I think it’s a compounding effect of not just making your life easier, your business better, but I think, I love your quote that you started that out on, a lot can be said for just the impact that clarity and expectations have on a worker’s day-to-day. Like when you know exactly what you need to do, how you’re going to be measured for it, what’s expected of you. There’s nothing worse than living in an ambiguous world where you don’t know if you’re doing a good job or not.

Nick Schiffer:

Right. I think Google does this freedom vacation policy, and we actually implemented it a couple years ago. And I ended up reading an article about how the freedom vacation policy is actually worse for an employee because they don’t know what is an appropriate amount of time to take off, so they don’t take time off. And it was super interesting where I asked my team, they’re like, “Yeah, we would actually rather know how much time we have rather than just an unlimited amount of time.”

Zach Wojtowicz:

I’ll let you decide.

Nick Schiffer:

Yeah. And they’re like, “I don’t know. Am I allowed to take a week or two? Can I take six weeks?” So, people like having some sort of guardrail to stay within, so they know that they’re headed down the right path. And what you just said, KPIs, knowing how they’re being measured, that’s something that we continue to improve on and realize that if I’m doing a job, and I can see my performance and know how I’m being graded, then the sky’s the limit. If someone says, “Hey, we’re going to pay you based on your output,” great. I have autonomy on how much money I make based on my output, and I can see that. It’s like, “Hey, I’m doing a good job, so I know that I can increase my output and make more money.”

Charley Burtwistle:

This is kind of a timely question because I have mine tomorrow, actually. Do you guys do annual reviews …

Zach Wojtowicz:

I’ll be there, just so you know.

Charley Burtwistle:

You’re coming to my annual review? Uh-oh.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Just going to barge in there.

Nick Schiffer:

So will I. I’m going to be there, too.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah. We’re like, we have feedback.

Charley Burtwistle:

Sweet. I would love that.

Nick Schiffer:

Yeah, we do bi-annual. So, we structured it where we touch base in the middle of the year and at the end of the year. It’s an evolving thing. I definitely sit down with them, everyone one-on-one for at least an hour or twice a year. But this year I want to be more structured, and I’d love to be in a position where we’re measuring their performance in kind of an automated fashion where we can spit out essentially a review and be like, “Hey, this is how you’re doing. This is how your project’s doing. This is what you’re directly tied to in terms of the success of it, and here are the areas that I think you can improve. Here’s what we should work on together. Here’s what you should work on.” And then of course, I use that time to, “Hey, am I a good leader? Am I providing you the information that you need to be able to be successful?”

Zach Wojtowicz:

I’ve actually have talked to builders about this quite a bit. What was the reaction of your team when you started to implement some of these more formalized structures? You said you went through kind of a journey, and you’re still kind of actively working on it. Now, it’s part of your culture. But what was the change management in order to get to that point?

Nick Schiffer:

That’s a difficult question.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Great.

Nick Schiffer:

Yeah, it was met with positive and negative feedback, just to be super honest. Truthfully lost some people in that change. They didn’t see the value in formalizing this stuff. And, frankly, that was really difficult because I was going into it thinking that, “Hey, here’s an opportunity I can help them get better. Let’s sit down and talk about this, let’s get better.” And I think about it constantly like, “Hey, did I approach that wrong? Should that person still be here?” But then I meet that thought with, no, it was time for them to move on. It was time for them to take another step. And, ultimately, I’m in that driver’s seat in terms of how I want to build this business and build this culture. And if I see value in that and someone else doesn’t, ultimately, that’s a misalignment. And the misalignment means that maybe we need to part ways.

The positive side of it, the positive feedback was that, “Hey, this is great. I get to see how my performance is. I have a little bit more understanding, and it’s not such a surprise.” We’re certainly not there yet in terms of having it dialed. My goal is to have it completely transparent on an employee side where they’re watching their performance. I would love to be in a position where they have, essentially, access to knowing exactly what their annual bonus could be. Instead of having it met with a calculation and an emotional decision at the end of the year. It’s a lot of work in terms of how we’re measuring it because there are certain things that might be out of their control and how do I factor that?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, it is a tough question, and it kind of ties into the retention conversation about how do you retain employees? And I think there is that, when you’re hearing these types of best practices of running a business, not even just a construction business because we do a lot of this kind of stuff, too. Even in my own department we’ve lost people, too, that they didn’t understand it. And that’s tough. It’s like these are people I had really close relationships with. You have a vision of where you want to go, and there’s a risk. Change means that it’s not going to be what it was, but it’s something new. And that’s where there’s going to be interpretation is if that’s a good or a bad thing. So, I’m curious with as far as now that you’re in this transition, and it is part of your culture, it’s not as much of a problem, and it’s totally worth it. What is your view on the retention element of employee benefits and running an operation that is about employee engagement as much as about the product that you’re giving to your customers?

Nick Schiffer:

Yeah, I think that, ultimately, it comes down to having full alignment with everyone and being in a position where, I feel as though I’ve communicated what our goals are. This is where I want to bring the company. And taking the opportunity to sit down and making sure that other people are aligned with that goal. Like, “Hey, this is what I want to be doing.” And that might change. It certainly has, over the last 10 years. I’ve changed what that goal looks like, and I try to be upfront about that and communicate that and share appreciation for everyone that is involved. And then just ask, making sure that, “Hey, are your goals aligned with what my goals are?” And if they are, then how can we work together to achieve that together?

So, I think that from a retention standpoint, I think it really is a matter of making sure that everyone has a common goal, and ultimately, really believes in what you’re trying to accomplish. I think that when someone challenges what is trying to be accomplished or doesn’t fully understand or see why that would be the goal, it’s typically a sign of misalignment.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, I think a lot of that and why I love talking to you. I always get so much out of these podcast interviews. We need to have them earlier in the day, so I’m fired up for the rest of the day as opposed to having them at the end of the day.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Like a 7:00 a.m., like rather than a gym run we’re doing a podcast.

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah. A cup of coffee and a podcast with Schiffer, that’d be great.

Nick Schiffer:

God, how about 5:00 AM?

Charley Burtwistle:

Yeah, let’s do it.

Nick Schiffer:

Just get up, quick ice bath …

Zach Wojtowicz:

The marketing team loves when we brainstorm live. We just come up with like, oh, what about a 4:30? What do you guys think? Should we … Yeah? No? They’re out.

Charley Burtwistle:

Can we get a couple ice baths in the studio?

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah. Be a recovery room.

Charley Burtwistle:

What I was going to go to though is I just love the growth mindset that you have. And I think a lot of the guests that we have on here, luckily, we’re fortunate enough to talk to people that operate in this mindset of change is uncomfortable, it’s going to be really hard. You may take a step backwards to, ultimately, go two steps forward. And I think a lot of the things that COVID kind of forced people to do is that forced change and people started understanding, “Okay, we can continue to operate, we can continue to iterate, we can get more and more productive.” And hearing you talk just firsthand, it’s clear that that’s the space that you want to operate in. But it’s tough because a lot of times things have worked pretty well for a really long time and pretty well is good enough for a lot of people. So, I think that there’s a disconnect oftentimes of why do I need change? Why do I need to do these expectations and why do I need to do all these different processes if it’s working? Well, so it can work better, believe it or not.

Nick Schiffer:

Well, I mean, I’ll meet that with a couple of things. I think that change isn’t necessary for everyone. It’s when people ask me, “Why should I be on social media?” It’s like, well, if you want to grow … I don’t want to grow my business. I’m like, then why are you asking me the question? If you’re cool, if you’re coasting, you’re plateaued and you’re super comfy, don’t change anything. You don’t have to change anything. If you’re maintaining, why would you change? And it’s like if you maintain a perfect weight and then all of a sudden it’s like, I got to cut calories. It’s like, why? You’re going to lose weight? It’s like, “Well, I just don’t want to gain weight.” It’s like you’re not gaining weight, you’re maintaining.

But I think you’re absolutely right, change is super uncomfortable. And I think that this industry is very challenging for a lot of ways, it’s very stressful. And change, it can cripple people. And I’ve had, I don’t want to say crippling anxiety, but I’ve had crippling thoughts of like, “Man, this is so hard. This shouldn’t be this hard. Why am I going through this?” And oftentimes I’m telling someone, “Hey, my day’s 10 out of 10,” because even if I’m struggling, why would I communicate out loud and convince myself that my day’s any less good than it is. And if I say it out loud, it’s a reminder that today is good and there’s good within it. And I think that with a lot of my decision making, when it’s really difficult, I remind myself of the risk, and I’ll go to the extreme. People are like, well, what if you lose your business? It’s like, man, that would suck. Or what if someone sues you and you lose your house and you lose everything? It’s like, yeah, that would suck. In your car, it’s like, yeah, that would suck.

It’s like, what are you going to do? It’s like I’d probably move in with my in-laws or my friends, my parents. I have no idea. But, ultimately, yeah, all of this could ruin me. I could start from zero. I could start from negative zero, negative whatever, and have to redo all this because I’ve made a bad decision. But at the end of the day, not to get super sentimental, I’m alive, and I still have opportunity in front of me, and I don’t ever want to get to that point. I’m going to do everything in my power to prevent that.

And I think that in the challenging times, that’s exactly what’s happening. Life is challenging me, where it’s like, “Hey, this is really hard, this is going to suck,” and you can do a couple things. You can give up, which is totally fine. I want to be upfront about that. I’m not just like, you can’t give up. There’s times where it makes sense to give up or it’s just like you got to stop because it’s just not right anymore, and it’s truly just not the best decision for you and/or your family or it’s persevering. And go through it and come out on the other side with this opportunity to look back and be like, man, that was a lesson learned. And that lesson might be a week, a month, a year, five years, who knows?

But, ultimately, you’re always going to have these challenging times, and you’re going to make a decision. But at the end of the day it’s like none of this matters. In the grand scheme of life, of me living on this planet, this doesn’t matter. But for me today, it does matter and it matters to my family, and I want to have a great life and a successful career and build a legacy and provide my family with an amazing life, and that’s why I choose to persevere and push through it and face the challenging times.

And I just think that people, we oftentimes make these decisions in fear of worst-case scenario. And what that does is it stuns someone, or it cripples them into that moment, and then they find comfort. All right, I’m not going to do anything more because right now I have the least amount of stress I’ve ever had. It’s like, great, that’s good. I don’t love stress, but I appreciate what it does to me and what it brings to my career and what it does to me as a human being. I think that in some of the most stressful times of my life, I’ve changed my life personally and professionally and in some of the best ways. And it’s been a product of being in a tough spot.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Well said, Nick. We could keep going for another two hours. We better cut off. And, obviously, we’re going to break that sixth place on “The Building Code,” so you better come back because there’s a lot we want to talk about. Thank you so much for coming on. For our listeners, Nick’s going to be diving into all the things that we were talking about with Dan on the panel at IBS.

Nick, it was a pleasure having you on again.

Nick Schiffer:

Appreciate you guys. See you Las Vegas.

Zach Wojtowicz:

All right, Charles, we hyped it up. What do you think?

Charley Burtwistle:

That was incredible. That was …

Zach Wojtowicz:

I know we would’ve got way too long. We were getting into some really cool topics and if our marketing team takes our … They don’t always take our ideas, but this is why I was like let’s get Nick back as soon as possible.

Charley Burtwistle:

Absolutely. No, I learned a ton. I knew I was going to going in, I follow him on all the socials, listen to his podcast a ton. So, I was excited. This is actually my first time ever talking with him.

Zach Wojtowicz:

I know.

Charley Burtwistle:

I know you guys are best friends and hang out all the time.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, we text.

Charley Burtwistle:

But, no, it was everything I wanted and more. And I think, we say this a lot, but the stuff that we talk about on the podcast and the stuff that I learned is just so applicable to our lives. Not just work, but outside of work as well, too. And, especially, the timeliness of this episode where we’re talking about annual reviews and what are your goals for the next year and what are the expectations and are those clearly defined? Because you and I both, we have people above us and below us, so we can take that and learn a ton of like, “Okay, well what am I going to do to make sure everyone that reports to me knows exactly what they need to do to be successful in the next year?”

And also, how can I set up myself with my own goals so that my manager or my boss, my CEO, whoever it may be, can clearly understand what I’m trying to achieve, how I want to achieve it, how I want to live, how I want to work, things like that. So, that’s what I loved about him is it wasn’t just all, this is what we do at NS Builders, this is what we do at our companies. It’s like, this is what I do in my life and this is how I want to live and how I want to succeed and how I want to thrive.

So yeah, it was a great episode. I wish I was going to IBS this year. I didn’t have the heart to tell Nick during the interview, but I will not be there. But maybe you can sneak into the panel and record it for me, so I can watch.

Zach Wojtowicz:

Yeah, absolutely. I will do my best to replicate the one and only Charley Burtwistle. But if you’re going to be in Las Vegas, please come say hello to myself, I’ll be in the booth, and all of our wonderful BuilderTrend employees are there to talk with you, network. Remember, that’s one of the best parts is just getting to talk to other people. We’d love to see you down there.

For “The Building Code,” I’m Zach Wojtowicz.

Charley Burtwistle:

And I’m Charley Burtwistle.

Zach Wojtowicz:

We’ll catch you next time.

Charley Burtwistle:

Peace.